Ravin’ Traven: Response To Last Week’s Rant

Ravin' Traven: Response To Last Week's Rant

WOW, that was sure some response I got from the rant last week. It’s gratifying folks actually read the thing, but it was surely overwhelming

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I think it might be time to reflect upon the depth and VIGOR of the response, too. Allow me to remind you all of a few things first:

1. The rant is intended primarily as a communication to MY customers, a vehicle for me to get the Peace Tree message through the piles of faxes and e-mails flooding their desks.

2. It is not intended to do anything other than to make people THINK about things, not to pontificate, not to tell anyone what they must think, but what I’m thinking and how I see things. Well, it’s fair to say that people surely were thinking about this one!!!

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3. The entire response trail was about the last couple sentences only, not the main thrust of the rant. The majority of it was about herbs and veggies and how I believe there is tremendous pent-up demand for our products, anything with gorgeous color moving to retail even if it is 30 degrees too cold to allow it to live.

I closed with a simple question: “Did you catch the Home Depot promotion last week?” Holy crap: INCOMING, INCOMING!!!! Yikes, it’s not like a pro-choice, pro-life debate here or Darwin versus Creationism. It’s not even whether you prefer your marshmallow Peeps stale or fresh!!

Well, maybe to MR. ANONYMOUS it is. If I may be blunt (as if THAT would ever happen), it is really easy to take cheap shots, make snide innuendos and spout sophomoric references to growing up in the ’60s when you are NOT WILLING to sign your own name to your comments!!

YOUR comments are equally important to the conversation, and the interpretation of them relies on identifying from where your viewpoint emerges. It also seemed crucial to Mr. Anonymous to direct it all at me personally. I’m okay with that, but let’s get some value for everyone out of this and actually debate the topic publicly.

Let’s do a session at Short Course, side by side. Let the audience ask the questions. Let’s see what they say, too. I have no idea how it will turn out, but it sure would be fun.

Let’s be clear about this, please. Any company, large or small, follows the same rules. Market forces affect us equally, and we all have to controls costs, provide a good perceived value, deliver to spec and be on schedule. It is EXACTLY the same, no matter what tier of the market we serve.

Mr. A seemed obsessively focused on how LARGE he is (and the Freudians of us out there KNOW what THAT tells us about him) and putting others out of business as a measurement of “competing.” But the one thing missing was the ACTUAL customer, the one who picks it up at retail and parts with money. What I was concerned with was the MESSAGE that the Depot promotion sent, that beautiful fresh annuals are worth 33 cents. The customer never said that; Depot did, and the customer has learned that now.

There was a response from Jerry Montgomery–certainly a superb market analyst, if there ever was one. It’s hard to imagine, but my personal history with him goes back over 30 years (OMG!!!) from when I was a minor peon at Ball and he was already a major chieftain. He was totally correct what the intent of Depot and Lowe’s was: to drive people through the doors.

But here’s how I see it (and I must thank Candy, who read the response trail one night with horror and asked, “Why do you get involved with this stuff?” but then came up with a great idea): If Depot wants to REALLY be a hero, they should GIVE these plants away with another purchase over a certain point. They would have lost far less money, because they would have GIVEN AWAY less, and their customer would have really felt they were getting something OF VALUE, instead of a ridiculously under-priced annual.

Geez, put the stupid DRILL on sale to get people in to buy annuals. This is the season for making money on OUR product, so why on earth would you give it up NOW? That’s all I was saying. Take the TARGET off my back. Don’t send KOHL’S to Newcastle. Don’t spray me with MACY’S. Put away your AK-Mart 47. Don’t put me up against the Walmart. I feel so Lowe’s. I’m just trying to raise the True Value.

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Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Apparently that promo was a regional thing as the HD in the Ohio valley did not have that. Maybe only those NE stores are having some problems.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I have noticed that this week they are promoting Bonnie Sue vegetables…5″ one for $3.88 so that is a long ways from .33. That .33 must have been just for a week. Or are they still doing it? Luckily we don’t have a home depot but over 75 miles from us so that will be good. How do I find out and read the comments that were made last week? Or are they just for your eyes? Thanks, and spring is here in Iowa. Becky

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Becky L: Go to the top of this page and look for the link that says RANT LAST WEEK–it is a different color than this week’s text. All the responses are there, and there are STILL people commenting. WOW!!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I think most people are missing the point here. Nobody can argue that such a promotion will drive foot traffic in the stores that have it – they work for the retailer. And the issue isn’t whether or not the grower(s) are getting paid full price or a discounted price, though my experience would lead me to believe they are not getting full price. The issue is the further degradation of the perceived value of our product in the mind of the consumer. Our product is frequently used for these “loss-leader” promotions to the long-term detriment to all of us. Anyone who willingly and happily supports and defends this practice has no standing to complain that they aren’t getting paid enough by their clients for their product for they are willing participants in aiding the retailers in keeping our prices this way. It’s just more evidence that too many of our fellow growers take a much too short-term look at their business and our industry as a whole. Our domestic auto industry has done this for decades – care to ask them how they’re doing now?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Becky, as long as we communicate with each other with our concerns and work together for a common solution we can overcome the negative path some of the anonymous writers have posted. The Chain Stores may decide to continue this devaluing of our product for reasons posted in Lloyds column ( not by Lloyd, or the help we have received from Bell Nursery but ) by the anonymous. Your remoteness is not much of an escape as I have experienced on the Eastern Shore of Maryland ( thought as the last frontier of the East Coast )by other not so conscious growers.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Mr. T,

It doesnt matter who I am. I don’t care who you are. In fact, I am a small grower, (the only correction I’ll bother making.) I, small grower, believes the free market is what keeps everyone alive, from Metrolina down the the guy with 2 hoops. We just have to work hard to find our niche and prove our worth, not beg everyone else to raise their price. The minute we do that, and settle at FOR EXAMPLE, $4.00 for a 4.5″, there will be an entrepenuer among us, and very possibly you, who will see a HUGE market for $3.25 4.5″. Don’t tell me you would not jump on that oppurtunity, because we know you would. I would, and no, I still would not care about my competition. (business-wise)

What would drive quality/service?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Well, on the surface this makes sense, A. Of course, the fallacy is that the opportunity you see at $3.25 is based only upon cutting under another posted price of $4. Sounds grand, but maybe it COSTS $3.50. You could, of course, make up the loss by selling volume, but you’re a small grower. No thanks, I’ll skip that opportunity. Hey, I’m suggesting they CUT THE PRICE—give it away, let the customer be given something of VALUE as a reward for other purchases. The math actually works better for the box store. Whatever is it that I said that makes you feel I don’t believe in the free market, that I’m begging anyone to do anything?Last I looked, you don’t own the franchise on “working hard to find your niche and prove our worth.” Come take a look—we’re not exactly living La Vida Loca at Peace Tree Farm.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd,
Good discussion. THD system for annuals and perennials (and herbs) is pay by scan or better described as Vendor Managed Inventory. THD could figure out a complicated scheme where they pay the grower and discount the retail scan to .00 with each drill but how many 4″ do you want on hand? These are smart folks running THD (Mr. EGO is gone). VMI is still evolving and this lost leader tactic is new in the system which is predicated on the grower replenishing to the rate of sale. Response to the sale was strong and achieved the goal of packing the store and when the 4 day ad ended the sales resumed at .99 as if it had not happened here in Florida. I do think it is a fair to wonder about the long term effects if these events were to happen at all the box stores in peak seasons. The cost of goods, the supply dynamics, the weather and production capacities limit these giveaway retail pricing events so they are not likely, in my opinion, to change the long term perceived value of our products. Shrubs in the northwest and palms and trees in the south are oversupplied with the housing market shut down and overproduction on these long term crops but let’s not confuse those short term low prices in the marketplace with the true values of these annuals and perennials (and herbs) in this discussion.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

The point that some are missing (and you are bringing to the forefront) is the 33 cent promotion is not at Home Depot expense as they are not obligated for anything. The pay by scan means the grower only is paid for what goes across the register and for that price. I do not think that the Home Depot’s or Lowes are making up any difference in price. The concern that I have is that there are Brokers and growers agreeing to this price point and at the cost of the grower as well as setting a low price for a good product. Growers that have been dealing with the chain stores for so long cannot just move to another type of distribution in one year – it takes time to change and hopefully they make a change to other outlets before they lose too much. Excellent topic and thank you for bringing it up – Many growers are producing an excellent product and selling at a less than acceptable price well taking all of the risk.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

THD is paying growers the same whloesale price as the day before the sale. They scanned all product that was delivered, as you can imagine at that price, so it was a win-win since it drove total store business so well. I think there is a missconception that THD is unreasonable to deal with and that is not how it is at all.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

GREAT ANALYSIS, Rick, as always. It is a pleasure to hear from both you and Gary on the topic, since you are among the few who have the full skinny on all the aspects. I’d also like to say that I am NOT Mr. T from above, and I pity the fool who confuses us. LOL. Anyway, you are renforcing all the info that Gary spoke to as well. For me, there was NEVER any thought that the GROWER was getting shafted by Depot, far from it–you guys are way too smart to play that game. None of my comments have ever been directed at the gorwers who sell to Depot, nor to Depot itself, even though some seem to think I am directing this toward them. My emphaisi, right from the get-go, was about the consumers, and how they see the value of what we do. Personally, I’d rather see us build the value, make it so desirable that it would never be seen as a loss-leader, but the Cadillac product. Your company does that, and does it VERY well in a brutally tough market area, but There is still the worry of long-term perception damage, however slight. We’ve all been doing this a long time now, and can we still remember the absolute SHOCK when Sears put out poinsettias for 3/$10? We all were asking, “Why would they do that to the veritable SYMBOL OF CHRISTMAS, and do it during prime time selling?” Well, THAT was the beginning of the commoditizing of our products and prices have NEVER recovered—so what was seen as a one-time promotion became the new REAL value forever. I’m just looking to figure out we keep doing it. THANK YOU for joining in the discussion, and putting your good name out there.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Rick: What’s the regular 4″ price in your territiory? Just curious, no other reason for asking. Anyone else willing to share?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd,
After 30 years at .88 it jumped last year to .97 and didn’t skip a beat in sales. Such a deal! Who thinks it will stay there until 2039?

Glad you brought up the Points for old time sake. The history is that the volume kept the growers who started this production at a loss busy turning cash and retaining employees and that argument remains for some today. I grew points from ’77 to ’94 at a profit (Heggs thru Freedoms)until the Canadian product cut me out at 1.75 landed in Fl. vs. 3.25 I was getting. Is somebody keeping track of all of this?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Rick: I believe the sales numbers in PA are almost exactly the same, with the same rise last year. Zero negative effect on sales as well. Good stuff to know. It does beg the question that if price is apparently a minor consideration (the price jumped overnight by over 10% without any sales drop)then why do some try so hard to get lower than everyone else? It’s like when Pennsylvania started the insane volumetric labelling thing. I am CONVINCED that it is just about the LAST thing the consumer cares about. To paraphrase a former President, “It’s the plant, Stupid.” I propose that all plants be graded by quality standards to really establish value and prices. Can you see this on a label? “This plant is USDA MEDIOCRE” This one is USDA SUPERB. It might not be so bad for some–after all, some of the big growers EASILY would put product out there ranked as SUPERB, and be paid accordingly. We pay more for “CHOICE” beef, diamonds are rated by color and clarity, sheets are rated by thread count, lingerie is rated by sheerness. Plants are rated by pot size. Huh?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd, Regardless of the size of the operation or the plant that is produced, the perishable and growing product will be of a different perceived quality on any given day no matter how sophisticated we become. Weather dictates when we will sell our products no matter how good we are. If weather is good early the plants will sell out small and if it breaks late we will sell less and do the best we can to mitigate quality that deviates from our intended goals and take a loss. That’s farming. No grading system is practical. Quality is the biggest factor and is dictated by the weather and the farmer that gets the most quality to the market in all weather situations and gets paid fairly wins. I see pot size and price variegations diverging in all markets as growers and retailers have figured out how to add perceived value to their products. So many of our customers see a quality plant and put it in the cart feeling it must be a value at the marked price and they have no frame of reference to tell them different. Packs and 4 inch will remain dominant commodities as a draw and sold at a decent profit in good weather but quality in all other sizes will give the retailer and the grower the most options for differentiation at higher margins.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Are we talking retail or wholesale price ????

Our WHOLESALE price is .97 for our 4 1/4″ pot we call a 4 1/2″. Our customer sells for everywhere between 1.69 which I believe to be to low, to 2.99 which I believe is to high. I suggest the plant to be sold at 2.29. We consider our plants to be high quality, you can grow as well but not any better. This comment not meant to critisize only to place a value.

I made a visit to Homestead Gardens many of us know is located in Davidsonville, MD near our state capitol to find their basic 4 ” annuals ( I did mot measure ). They had a sale price of 1.99 which was their promo at 25 % off. Retail.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

The pricing for 4″-4.25-4.5″ that everyone is is talking about is this material seed material or cutting material? Are you selling 4″ for the same price as your 4.5″? Are you Nuts!!??? We’re located in New York and deliver to 5 States. Unfortunatly, Lloyd, I am talking about the size of the pot and not the quality of the plant only because that is the industry standard of talking not the QUALITY of the plant that’s in the pot. After the past year and fuel pricing everyone needs to raise their WHOLESALE prices above the dollar mark to make up for LAST years $4.00 oil pricing. Do you think that just went away? Have you checked your plastic prices this year? They didn’t go down they went up and so did soil, Fertilizer, etc. This industry has got to stop apologizing for the prices we need to charge to make a living, along with all of agriculture. And we don’t get any government subsudies like the Dairy and Grain industries do. Our base price for 2009 is $1.01/ 4″ pot (seed) and $1.21 4″ (Cuts) our 11 cm start at $1.21/pot and go up depending on volume per delivery. I wish everyone good fortune in 2009.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Sue,

In Maryland, Sold as 4 1/2″ ( 4 1/4″ )High quality
Sold wholesale only. 7 states including NY.

.97 seed material such as Marigolds

2.05 vegetative such as Proven Winners

You have all very good points. Simple and to the point.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Okay, I’ve got to figure out some way to make SARCASM evident in forums—Delilah, please let your developers allow COLOR changes. Seriously, it is totally tongue-in-cheek when i suggest quality ratings as a way to quantify plant material at retail. It would NEVER happen, although I would love it. It would give the high quality growers an unfair advantage, and this will never be allowed. After all, it’s a free market, and we can’t allow anything to interfere with the rapid commiditization of our wonderful products. Never lose sight of the rules—WE’RE SELLING POTS. They just happen to contain plants.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Hi Lloyd.
I’m trying to figure out a way to turn what we’ve got here into some kind of industry talk show. Or maybe this becomes the town meeting topic a year from now at Short Course. Or it may tie in with the one planned this year — Differentiate Or Die. Maybe we could start something on our Fresh Air Forum where you are the discussion leader and we have a spectrum of viewpoints and people to represent those participate in a live discussion. I think it has potential.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd

For a while I thought maybe you were trying to engage in a serious discussion as to the problem with growers devaluing the plant market. Looking for ideas to keep us from falling into the economic spiral downward we have seen in other markets is why I respond to your forum. The sarcasm from growers responding to your forums including my own does not help with the goals I believe we’re trying to achieve. Color is what our customer needs to see on our plants, not on this forum unless I got it wrong that we are not looking to solve an ongoing problem with growers unnecessarily discounting our products, but competing with American Idol. I understand your excitement to the good response to your forum, but it will surely end if you lose track of the subject.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Murphy, I’m not sure what you mean by that last message. I was just trying to defuse it a bit, and also to make sure everyone understands that I’m NOT seriously proposing rating and pricing by quality, as much as I would love that. But I’m not seeing where we have collectively lost focus here. It is great to see people responding with actual numbers and pricing, but it surely is amazing what some are charging. We’ve never grown the 4″ typical seed annuals, never wanted to be in the ‘pennies’ market, because it makes me wonder why something from seed might price out at $1.00 compared to a vegetative plant at TWICE that. After all, what is the real difference in cost? Same pot, same soil, same or more time for the seed annual, and in many cases, a fairly expensive plug cost if you are growing the newer, cooler stuff (Cora vinca, Serena angelonia, Zinnia Magellan or Zahara, etc). Yeah, there’s an extra cost for the PW type stuff, but not enough to require twice the price. There is LESS difference with the “me-too” stuff, as well. We certainly can get the price for the vegetative material, so why not make the seed product more in line, and maybe make more margin? Just my thoughts.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Apparently that promo was a regional thing as the HD in the Ohio valley did not have that. Maybe only those NE stores are having some problems.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I have noticed that this week they are promoting Bonnie Sue vegetables…5″ one for $3.88 so that is a long ways from .33. That .33 must have been just for a week. Or are they still doing it? Luckily we don’t have a home depot but over 75 miles from us so that will be good. How do I find out and read the comments that were made last week? Or are they just for your eyes? Thanks, and spring is here in Iowa. Becky

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Becky L: Go to the top of this page and look for the link that says RANT LAST WEEK–it is a different color than this week’s text. All the responses are there, and there are STILL people commenting. WOW!!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I think most people are missing the point here. Nobody can argue that such a promotion will drive foot traffic in the stores that have it – they work for the retailer. And the issue isn’t whether or not the grower(s) are getting paid full price or a discounted price, though my experience would lead me to believe they are not getting full price. The issue is the further degradation of the perceived value of our product in the mind of the consumer. Our product is frequently used for these “loss-leader” promotions to the long-term detriment to all of us. Anyone who willingly and happily supports and defends this practice has no standing to complain that they aren’t getting paid enough by their clients for their product for they are willing participants in aiding the retailers in keeping our prices this way. It’s just more evidence that too many of our fellow growers take a much too short-term look at their business and our industry as a whole. Our domestic auto industry has done this for decades – care to ask them how they’re doing now?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Becky, as long as we communicate with each other with our concerns and work together for a common solution we can overcome the negative path some of the anonymous writers have posted. The Chain Stores may decide to continue this devaluing of our product for reasons posted in Lloyds column ( not by Lloyd, or the help we have received from Bell Nursery but ) by the anonymous. Your remoteness is not much of an escape as I have experienced on the Eastern Shore of Maryland ( thought as the last frontier of the East Coast )by other not so conscious growers.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Mr. T,

It doesnt matter who I am. I don’t care who you are. In fact, I am a small grower, (the only correction I’ll bother making.) I, small grower, believes the free market is what keeps everyone alive, from Metrolina down the the guy with 2 hoops. We just have to work hard to find our niche and prove our worth, not beg everyone else to raise their price. The minute we do that, and settle at FOR EXAMPLE, $4.00 for a 4.5″, there will be an entrepenuer among us, and very possibly you, who will see a HUGE market for $3.25 4.5″. Don’t tell me you would not jump on that oppurtunity, because we know you would. I would, and no, I still would not care about my competition. (business-wise)

What would drive quality/service?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Well, on the surface this makes sense, A. Of course, the fallacy is that the opportunity you see at $3.25 is based only upon cutting under another posted price of $4. Sounds grand, but maybe it COSTS $3.50. You could, of course, make up the loss by selling volume, but you’re a small grower. No thanks, I’ll skip that opportunity. Hey, I’m suggesting they CUT THE PRICE—give it away, let the customer be given something of VALUE as a reward for other purchases. The math actually works better for the box store. Whatever is it that I said that makes you feel I don’t believe in the free market, that I’m begging anyone to do anything?Last I looked, you don’t own the franchise on “working hard to find your niche and prove our worth.” Come take a look—we’re not exactly living La Vida Loca at Peace Tree Farm.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd,
Good discussion. THD system for annuals and perennials (and herbs) is pay by scan or better described as Vendor Managed Inventory. THD could figure out a complicated scheme where they pay the grower and discount the retail scan to .00 with each drill but how many 4″ do you want on hand? These are smart folks running THD (Mr. EGO is gone). VMI is still evolving and this lost leader tactic is new in the system which is predicated on the grower replenishing to the rate of sale. Response to the sale was strong and achieved the goal of packing the store and when the 4 day ad ended the sales resumed at .99 as if it had not happened here in Florida. I do think it is a fair to wonder about the long term effects if these events were to happen at all the box stores in peak seasons. The cost of goods, the supply dynamics, the weather and production capacities limit these giveaway retail pricing events so they are not likely, in my opinion, to change the long term perceived value of our products. Shrubs in the northwest and palms and trees in the south are oversupplied with the housing market shut down and overproduction on these long term crops but let’s not confuse those short term low prices in the marketplace with the true values of these annuals and perennials (and herbs) in this discussion.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

The point that some are missing (and you are bringing to the forefront) is the 33 cent promotion is not at Home Depot expense as they are not obligated for anything. The pay by scan means the grower only is paid for what goes across the register and for that price. I do not think that the Home Depot’s or Lowes are making up any difference in price. The concern that I have is that there are Brokers and growers agreeing to this price point and at the cost of the grower as well as setting a low price for a good product. Growers that have been dealing with the chain stores for so long cannot just move to another type of distribution in one year – it takes time to change and hopefully they make a change to other outlets before they lose too much. Excellent topic and thank you for bringing it up – Many growers are producing an excellent product and selling at a less than acceptable price well taking all of the risk.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

THD is paying growers the same whloesale price as the day before the sale. They scanned all product that was delivered, as you can imagine at that price, so it was a win-win since it drove total store business so well. I think there is a missconception that THD is unreasonable to deal with and that is not how it is at all.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

GREAT ANALYSIS, Rick, as always. It is a pleasure to hear from both you and Gary on the topic, since you are among the few who have the full skinny on all the aspects. I’d also like to say that I am NOT Mr. T from above, and I pity the fool who confuses us. LOL. Anyway, you are renforcing all the info that Gary spoke to as well. For me, there was NEVER any thought that the GROWER was getting shafted by Depot, far from it–you guys are way too smart to play that game. None of my comments have ever been directed at the gorwers who sell to Depot, nor to Depot itself, even though some seem to think I am directing this toward them. My emphaisi, right from the get-go, was about the consumers, and how they see the value of what we do. Personally, I’d rather see us build the value, make it so desirable that it would never be seen as a loss-leader, but the Cadillac product. Your company does that, and does it VERY well in a brutally tough market area, but There is still the worry of long-term perception damage, however slight. We’ve all been doing this a long time now, and can we still remember the absolute SHOCK when Sears put out poinsettias for 3/$10? We all were asking, “Why would they do that to the veritable SYMBOL OF CHRISTMAS, and do it during prime time selling?” Well, THAT was the beginning of the commoditizing of our products and prices have NEVER recovered—so what was seen as a one-time promotion became the new REAL value forever. I’m just looking to figure out we keep doing it. THANK YOU for joining in the discussion, and putting your good name out there.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Rick: What’s the regular 4″ price in your territiory? Just curious, no other reason for asking. Anyone else willing to share?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd,
After 30 years at .88 it jumped last year to .97 and didn’t skip a beat in sales. Such a deal! Who thinks it will stay there until 2039?

Glad you brought up the Points for old time sake. The history is that the volume kept the growers who started this production at a loss busy turning cash and retaining employees and that argument remains for some today. I grew points from ’77 to ’94 at a profit (Heggs thru Freedoms)until the Canadian product cut me out at 1.75 landed in Fl. vs. 3.25 I was getting. Is somebody keeping track of all of this?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Rick: I believe the sales numbers in PA are almost exactly the same, with the same rise last year. Zero negative effect on sales as well. Good stuff to know. It does beg the question that if price is apparently a minor consideration (the price jumped overnight by over 10% without any sales drop)then why do some try so hard to get lower than everyone else? It’s like when Pennsylvania started the insane volumetric labelling thing. I am CONVINCED that it is just about the LAST thing the consumer cares about. To paraphrase a former President, “It’s the plant, Stupid.” I propose that all plants be graded by quality standards to really establish value and prices. Can you see this on a label? “This plant is USDA MEDIOCRE” This one is USDA SUPERB. It might not be so bad for some–after all, some of the big growers EASILY would put product out there ranked as SUPERB, and be paid accordingly. We pay more for “CHOICE” beef, diamonds are rated by color and clarity, sheets are rated by thread count, lingerie is rated by sheerness. Plants are rated by pot size. Huh?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd, Regardless of the size of the operation or the plant that is produced, the perishable and growing product will be of a different perceived quality on any given day no matter how sophisticated we become. Weather dictates when we will sell our products no matter how good we are. If weather is good early the plants will sell out small and if it breaks late we will sell less and do the best we can to mitigate quality that deviates from our intended goals and take a loss. That’s farming. No grading system is practical. Quality is the biggest factor and is dictated by the weather and the farmer that gets the most quality to the market in all weather situations and gets paid fairly wins. I see pot size and price variegations diverging in all markets as growers and retailers have figured out how to add perceived value to their products. So many of our customers see a quality plant and put it in the cart feeling it must be a value at the marked price and they have no frame of reference to tell them different. Packs and 4 inch will remain dominant commodities as a draw and sold at a decent profit in good weather but quality in all other sizes will give the retailer and the grower the most options for differentiation at higher margins.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Are we talking retail or wholesale price ????

Our WHOLESALE price is .97 for our 4 1/4″ pot we call a 4 1/2″. Our customer sells for everywhere between 1.69 which I believe to be to low, to 2.99 which I believe is to high. I suggest the plant to be sold at 2.29. We consider our plants to be high quality, you can grow as well but not any better. This comment not meant to critisize only to place a value.

I made a visit to Homestead Gardens many of us know is located in Davidsonville, MD near our state capitol to find their basic 4 ” annuals ( I did mot measure ). They had a sale price of 1.99 which was their promo at 25 % off. Retail.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

The pricing for 4″-4.25-4.5″ that everyone is is talking about is this material seed material or cutting material? Are you selling 4″ for the same price as your 4.5″? Are you Nuts!!??? We’re located in New York and deliver to 5 States. Unfortunatly, Lloyd, I am talking about the size of the pot and not the quality of the plant only because that is the industry standard of talking not the QUALITY of the plant that’s in the pot. After the past year and fuel pricing everyone needs to raise their WHOLESALE prices above the dollar mark to make up for LAST years $4.00 oil pricing. Do you think that just went away? Have you checked your plastic prices this year? They didn’t go down they went up and so did soil, Fertilizer, etc. This industry has got to stop apologizing for the prices we need to charge to make a living, along with all of agriculture. And we don’t get any government subsudies like the Dairy and Grain industries do. Our base price for 2009 is $1.01/ 4″ pot (seed) and $1.21 4″ (Cuts) our 11 cm start at $1.21/pot and go up depending on volume per delivery. I wish everyone good fortune in 2009.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Sue,

In Maryland, Sold as 4 1/2″ ( 4 1/4″ )High quality
Sold wholesale only. 7 states including NY.

.97 seed material such as Marigolds

2.05 vegetative such as Proven Winners

You have all very good points. Simple and to the point.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Okay, I’ve got to figure out some way to make SARCASM evident in forums—Delilah, please let your developers allow COLOR changes. Seriously, it is totally tongue-in-cheek when i suggest quality ratings as a way to quantify plant material at retail. It would NEVER happen, although I would love it. It would give the high quality growers an unfair advantage, and this will never be allowed. After all, it’s a free market, and we can’t allow anything to interfere with the rapid commiditization of our wonderful products. Never lose sight of the rules—WE’RE SELLING POTS. They just happen to contain plants.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Hi Lloyd.
I’m trying to figure out a way to turn what we’ve got here into some kind of industry talk show. Or maybe this becomes the town meeting topic a year from now at Short Course. Or it may tie in with the one planned this year — Differentiate Or Die. Maybe we could start something on our Fresh Air Forum where you are the discussion leader and we have a spectrum of viewpoints and people to represent those participate in a live discussion. I think it has potential.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd

For a while I thought maybe you were trying to engage in a serious discussion as to the problem with growers devaluing the plant market. Looking for ideas to keep us from falling into the economic spiral downward we have seen in other markets is why I respond to your forum. The sarcasm from growers responding to your forums including my own does not help with the goals I believe we’re trying to achieve. Color is what our customer needs to see on our plants, not on this forum unless I got it wrong that we are not looking to solve an ongoing problem with growers unnecessarily discounting our products, but competing with American Idol. I understand your excitement to the good response to your forum, but it will surely end if you lose track of the subject.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Murphy, I’m not sure what you mean by that last message. I was just trying to defuse it a bit, and also to make sure everyone understands that I’m NOT seriously proposing rating and pricing by quality, as much as I would love that. But I’m not seeing where we have collectively lost focus here. It is great to see people responding with actual numbers and pricing, but it surely is amazing what some are charging. We’ve never grown the 4″ typical seed annuals, never wanted to be in the ‘pennies’ market, because it makes me wonder why something from seed might price out at $1.00 compared to a vegetative plant at TWICE that. After all, what is the real difference in cost? Same pot, same soil, same or more time for the seed annual, and in many cases, a fairly expensive plug cost if you are growing the newer, cooler stuff (Cora vinca, Serena angelonia, Zinnia Magellan or Zahara, etc). Yeah, there’s an extra cost for the PW type stuff, but not enough to require twice the price. There is LESS difference with the “me-too” stuff, as well. We certainly can get the price for the vegetative material, so why not make the seed product more in line, and maybe make more margin? Just my thoughts.