Ravin’ Traven: Spring In Full Swing

Ravin' Traven: Spring In Full Swing

IT’S EASTER WEEK. The customers are calling, the greenhouse is doing its thing and we’re ready for the onslaught of spring. Are you?

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Herb and veggies are HOT, HOT, HOT. Somehow, it seems they are satisfying a real need, a DESIRE for real-world folks, under lots of pressure, to feel like they are doing something, anything, to take care of themselves. They’re bringing CONTROL back into their lives, some clarity of purpose and the belief that you control your own destiny. Gee, it’s been a long time since we felt that way, so this is a good thing.

We’re also seeing strong, pent-up demand for COLOR on anything. It may be “seasonally inappropriate,” like a New Guinea impatiens, but if it can be jammed in a color basket for Easter, it is going. We welcome this type of insanity, but it also creates some potential issues farther down the road–when it all croaks and people get the attitude that plants are NOT a good value.

By the way, did any of you catch the Home Depot promotion going on: four-inch annuals, three for a dollar. Hot diggity, we’re all going to be rolling in the money with that deal. Of course, it was limited to 60 pots, to prevent those pesky landscapers from going in and cleaning off the benches. BUT, don’t most HOMEOWNERS buy maybe 60 plants, too? Twenty dollars a season? We’ll ALL go out of business that way!

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Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Yes, quite the promotion. The growers that are buying into that kind of insanity and growing for Home Depot should be ostracized from the horticulture industry. They are doing a disservice to the entire industry.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Wondering if the Missus ever takes advantage of ‘buy one, get one free’ at the local supermarket?
Don’t include me in the ALL!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Before everyone panics – The South Florida market is an anomaly to a large degree in regards to plant pricing in every category, shape, form, and variety. Home Depot nor anyone else will likely approach that ridiculous price point elsewhere. A client in another market reported to me that Home Depot pricing of $4.99 for a 4″ PW.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Do you know how that promotion was set up? Why? The amount of foot traffic that was generated early in the year? No you don’t. Don’t broad stroke everyone and everything because it doesn’t fit what you think should be.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

These so called growers selling cheap will soon be no more than a memory. Selling at that price is a sure path to bankruptcy. The problem is that us descent growers will have to make up for our suppliers losses which also sell to these so called growers.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Free Market. Strong win, weak lose. Not anyone elses problem if you can’t take competion. You Ravin Travin, are the kind of people who will get the government involved with setting price floors and ceilings and really ruin the industry.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Without knowing the specifics of the Home Depot “Three for a Dollar” promotion, it is hard to make an educated comment. Was HD taking a loss on each sale, hence the “limit 30”. Loosing 40 cents on each pot, or $12.00 per customer can be made back pretty quick on a few bags of mulch, top soil, a new rake and trowel. Imagine if just one in 500 of those customers bought a new $500.00 grill. Sometimes the store is just trying to get foot traffic at any price. They did something similar with 6″ poinsettias last Christmas. I heard they were selling the poinsettias for less than they were paying the grower. The grower moves product and HD get people in the door. Seems like a win-win situation to me. Now if the three for a dollar price was a regular, every day price all season, then I think we’d need to be concerned.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It is time for the independants to retail at the wholesale price. Competition goes to the producers who sell their product directly to retail customers.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It is time the growers in this industry wake up. Selling 4″ Annuals for 3/1.00 doesn’t help anyone. For too long we have had several large Fla growers who think they can dominate the market by selling below cost. These growers think they can increase market share by selling below cost.What they have ended up doing is putting more and more inferior product on the market. Take a visit to your local HD Walmart or Lowes and look hard and objectively at the product being offered. It has been grown too fast, too close together and should have never been shipped. We as an industry need to clean up our act, learn how to grow, and know what it costs to grow a product.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Sorry to burst the bubble of ‘Anonymous’–they sure have been busy with comments–but I am NOT so naive to believe that this is a regular price, nor that the growers are taking the usual margin on the product. Of course we all know why they run a promo like this–to generate traffic in the store to sell OTHER products. But that misses the REAL issue here. It’s the CONSUMER who figures it out, too, and quickly sets a new value in their head for the product. So, now, OUR customers believe or perceive that an annual is worth 33 cents, not our ‘normal’ price. Also, I believe this deal was NOT solely in Florida—we had several reports in Philly on KYW News Radio on the garden show of the deal locally. To be clear, I did NOT hear the ad personally, but our manager did as did our driver while on the road. Bottom line, this is an incredibly and artificially lowered price, and please tell me how this works long-term for anyone in the GARDEN or plant industry. I’m pretty clear how it works for Depot.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Wow, that’s surely a giant leap to get my commentary turned into calling for government intervention and price-fixing. What kind of people am I exactly? We’ve been competing for quite a while now, never asked for a handout, nor asked for intervention. It’s pretty clear that the growers still get paid for the sale product, but it is really NOT a win-win for everyone over the long haul. Again, we are setting a value in the retail customer’s HEAD for the product–they will EXPECT it to ALWAYS be 33 cents and will resent, over time, the regular price structures. Once again, as an industry, we seen relentlessly intent upon LOWERING the value of our product in the consumer’s mind—and that is because WE fail to value our own product enough.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It is amazing to me that much of this industry thinks that the #1 issue with the customer is price. It is not. Go to your local HD or Lowes and watch. People pick up what they find attractive and quite often aren’t even sure of the price. All our costs continue to increase yet we continue to fool ourselves in thinking we are more productive and can continue to lower our prices. How many growers in the South are still waiting to be paid for product they sold last year? The answer is TOO Many! Take pride in what you grow and get a fair price for it or you may join the ranks of those who are no longer in business.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I agree with having competition and mostly agree with Lloyd Traven that the consumer will expect the 33 cents. One uissue that has not been addressed is that the growers that sell this product are also losing as they only are paid for what goes over the register the chain stores do not lose but the grower does. Until some of the growers or should I say brokers tell the chain stores that we will no provide the product at this price there will be even more growers going out of business. The grower will not have sufficient earnings for repayment of debt and thus their lender will not loan them funds for operating. Maybe this will also weed out the poor managers/growers that agree to this type of pricing.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

i would suspect that the suppliers of the pint annuals are not the ones that set the price. i doubt any grower wishes for government to establish retails for our product. if growers are losing money, they will fail, supply will be less and prices go up. if the growers who price their product more competively prosper, then the other growers need to reduce their costs, or convince their customers that there is value to their product, or they will fail. if promotions like this mean more people garden, then we all should win.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd,

Thank you for bringing up this subject. Maybe, probably not, these growers who flood our market with ridiculous prices will THINK, a least for a moment, as to what they are doing to this great business most of us enjoy.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It has been pretty apparent for the last few years that Lloyd likes to hear himself talk. He should stop doing the trade show curcuit and concentrate on growing his business. As a small grower maybe he is out of the loop of the larger growers that make these deals with Home Depot. Get all the facts before you spew out your nonsense! Our industry is not the only one that Home Depot makes these deals at a loss to gain foot traffic. The regular consumer is VERY aware that these deals are lost leaders! Wake up!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

If Home Depot is offering these kinds of sales specials now what kind of special discounts will they be offering for Mother’s Day or Memorial Day will they be given it away for free. This is the growers and retailers prime season to sell
their product it doesn’t need to be started off at a discount price by Home Depot.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Ha!!! I laughed out loud! For those of you who don’t know Lloyd, he’s about as likely to ask for government intervention as he is to sell his own GORGEOUS, premium product below cost. Err, NOT likely. The point is to get people thinking, which he obviously did. Looks like you hit a nerve Lloyd 🙂

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Steve Thomas is most assuredly correct that the GROWERs are not setting these prices, and it is also likely that they are being paid more than the retail price for their products–it is a loss leader for Depot, designed to get people in the stores. It seems to work, and that’s fine. Steve also hit the proverbial nail on the head—we need to convince the customer of the VALUE of the product in order to get a fair return. Unfortunately, we have now established, in some markets, 33 cents as the value. Ken also nails it—this is PRIME TIME, and the last thing that makes sense for our industry is to push out an artificially low discount (that’s OUR industry, it makes great sense for the Depot). Re: ANONYMOUS from April 9— WHY on earth should I stop doing the trade show circuit? I get constant requests to speak and I imagine that there is a reason for that beyond angering you–personally, I believe that it is an OBLIGATION to do this, that is is part of a mission to GIVE BACK to this industry, to contribute to the next generation of growers as well as this one. I’d LOVE to know WHO you are, so we could set up a session where we could each present and discuss our clearly different views. THAT would be a wonderful contribution to the discourse and knowledge base for everyone to advance their companies to fit their market. WHY should I concentrate on GROWING my business? To get big enough to knock heads in the low margin market with you instead of dealing with destination garden centers who appreciate unusual and exceptional product? No thanks. There are many LARGE growers who I consider to be good friends and equal colleagues, and they consider me the same way. We work in different circles with different customers, but that makes no difference. After all, as Anonymous said farther up this string (of course, it could ba a different anonymous), if PRICE is so far down on the list of consumer concerns, how do we justify anyone giving it away as a loss leader? If price doesn’t matter, why price it at 33 cents? Remember all the talk at Xmas about “Will anyone ever pay full retail again?” after the amazing discounting everywhere? I don’t know about you, but we’re trying constantly to reduce costs and become more efficient. We’ve invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to do just that. Of course, there is inevitably a point where all the extra has been cut out, and where do we go from there when inputs continue to rise and labor expects to make more? LOWERING prices doesn’t solve it. Increasing the perception of value does, as long as you get compensated. Paul, that nerve is throbbing right now!!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

If any grower out there is in any way afraid of home depot then you deserve to go out of business. I am a one man show with 9.000 sq ft of growing space 2 miles from a home depot. I grow everything I sell, I open first weekend in April and I am completely sold out by June 1st. The horrible plants at home depot are my best advertising, every customer of mine sees the difference, and is more than happy to pay the difference. Yesterday, a home depot employee was here spending nearly $100, she is a regular customer who will be back many times this year. I ran and ad a few years ago that read “What do live plants have in common with lumber and power tools? NOTHING! So don’t buy them at a hardware store.” Good (not necessarily FANCY) restaurants do not have “dollar menus”, and any single good restaurant will net more than any single McDonalds.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I always appreciate these “rants”. They amuse and inform, as all good teachings should. I saw Lloyd Traven a number of years ago speaking at a Euro American open house. I was by far the youngest grower at the talk. I took meticulos notes at every session at the open house, and now years later only two principles remain in my mind, both of which have influenced my success, and both of which Lloyd pounded in at his talk. Crunch all your numbers inside out, upside down and backwards, know what you are spending in time and money, space in the greenhouse, etc…, and never compromise your quality. Obviously home depot is doing neither. Have you seen their performance on the stock market lately? Crunch those numbers.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Would somebody know who the grower/growers is/are selling to HD in Florida? ( at 3 for a dollar )

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Excuse me, I meant the grower/growers selling to HD in Florida which in turn is selling to the public.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Passion. A Passion for the Plants from the People. That’s what makes this industry great. I read all these rants and I too heard the commercial. I started out working with growers before evolving into the independent garden center arena – so I respest and appreciate both elements.

Passion is rarely missing from the independents. They are however independents first – they don’t belong in a box because they think outside the box. These rants are the further evidence whether it was needed or not. Lloyd Traven spoke to our Garden Center Tour attendees on our Holiday Tour- he was engaging, insightful, knowledgeable and entertaining. Good qualities for a speaker in my humble opinion. The key for all of us is knowing who we are – as an industry, in our own company (be that garden center or grower). We live in a great country where we still get to make those choices. Extra kudos Lloyd for giving back to your industry! Kudos to all who shared their passion whether its agreed to or not…… NOW go sell some plants! 🙂

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Ah, if only “passion” paid the bills! I am all for taking the High Road in this business, but if all our customers (and potential customers) are at Depot buying annuals for 33 cents, who’s going to buy the 4″ Proven Winners for $4.99? If you’ve filled up your flower beds with 33 cent annuals, why would you buy any more– and where would you put them if you did?

Educating the Big Box customer as to why our plants have more “value”– good luck with that!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I stopped by the Home Depot in Gaithersburg Maryland today to take a look at the “four inch” annuals that had been on sale for three for $1.00 last weekend. They are now the regular price of $1.29 each. I might add that Home Depot’s radio ad and the sign in the store says “four inch” annual, even though they are in a much smaller pot that is at most 3-1/4″ across the top. The pot sticker is correctly labeled by Bell Nursery as a “pint”. Home Depot is exaggerating about the size, both on the radio and in the store. (Bell Nursery, are you listening?) The “pint” annuals did look pretty good.
I was however mortified at how the Easter Lilies where crammed on the carts, all smashed and mangled by putting too many plants on each shelf and having the shelves too close together. The lilies looked like they were OK before they were ruined by the person who loaded the carts. What a shame.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Dave in Maryland

I all honesty Bell Nurseries ( supplier of the HD’s in the Maryland, Delaware and beyond ) has in the past helped to increase the worth of our products. Before the Bell in the HD’s the price of flowers at these stores where a bit father off. Bell has a good bit of work to do but, they have been working at it.
The price of $ 1.29 for a 3 1/4″ pot of lets say Marigolds in a Chain Store really is not to far off. However Bell needs to be honest as to the real size of the pots ( it would be difficult to do in PA ) Using the same math for pot size Bell uses I could call my 4 1/2″ pots a 6″ pot.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Gary Mangum, and the exceptional folks at Bell Nursery, have truly raised the bar very high for everyone. Gary, his partner, and his staff are formidable competitors and suppliers—the true example that ALL of us should be looking toward emulating. Bell has DEFINITELY driven the price structure upward in my area, as well as the quality standards for box stores. Of course, that is the only reason they are able to drive pricing up. The same, in my experience, is NOT true nationwide, but is true in some areas. For example, Rick Brown does a great job in Florida. There are definitely other great examples, but there re too many examples of terrible quality and display technique. But this misses the point entirely—it is NOT about me, other growers whether small boutique growers or massive mega-growers, nor really about the retailers, but about the CONSUMER, the Mrs. Smith who actually buys product, the one who really drives it all through the supply chain. SHE is the one we need to nurture, the one who we must PROVE the value to. Right now, we are teaching her and reinforcing to her that the TRUE value is 33 cents—anything above that is usury, excess price and will eventually be seen as GOUGING. We are doing this to ourselves–anyone who thinks the box is concerned about the welfare of our industry beyond their direct suppliers is not thinking this through to conclusion. I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd

When a heater in the greenhouse is down, or an employee is having a problem, we look at what we can do to make it (him/her ) work within the goals we expect. I think we all can agree that the Chain Store’s plant prices are expected to be lower than a Independent Garden Center for all of the obvious reasons. When a Chain Store (Home Depot) sells 4″ annuals for 33 cents, WE, ALL GROWERS, have a problem.
If we can talk to this grower which allowed this to happen and inform this grower of our concerns than and only than can we begin to fix this problem. Please tell me that someone has addressed this problem to this grower and what the outcome of the conversation was.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

ravin travin,

think outside the industry. Whats sets prices on automobiles, the manufacturer or the market? houses, the seller, or the market? You have no concept of simple supply and demand economics. you dont set your price. if you did, at say, 6.50$, wholesale for a 6 inch pot, would you still be smokin at peace tree farms? Id love to sell our baskets at $25 wholesale. too bad i cant set MY price.

the risk some growers take by going for volume sales is not done to screw you or me. Its a risk taken by them as they see fit in their strategy for long term business. why should they care about anyone but themselves? the more power to them if they can make it, because that means they are a success. why would they want to lose money. Its the bigger picture. a strategy different than yours. why shoudl we all be the same? it is what make america tick my freind. thats why they have 40 acres and others have 4. Capitalize on your strengths, and they can capitalize on theirs. Find their weakness and exploit it rather than be a moaner. I feel like a highschool teacher instructing an economics/business 101 class.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It is a disgrace that some big growers compare the green industry with gas grills and automobiles.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

JV: You could not be more wrong. I’m NOT talking at all, through the entire discourse, about growers big or small, nor even retailers, but CONSUMERS and how they are taught to view our products. Do you seriously think they were DEMANDING 33 cent annuals? NO, we chose to provide it to them. You can’t set your prices? How sad. It must make you feel terrible, having absolutely no control over your business. Of course I set my price, the store gets to choose whether or not to buy. Many don’t, automatically deciding that their customers won’t pay the price–once again, the retailer usually makes the decision for the customer what our product is worth instead of letting the customer decide what they are willing to pay. I’d love to sell baskets at $25, but don’t–of course, I know the cost and don’t need to either. They’re WORTH it, but that’s another issue. However, FYI, we price MANY 6″ items at well over $6.50 wholesale–I’m curious about the “smokin” comment, though. WHY are you making your comments so personal? Nobody is screwing me–I’m not saying that, never have. But make no mistake, I follow the same rules you have to live by , too. I invest in my company, I expanded my capacity, I seek new customers, too. If my product falls short, or is not seen as a fair value, I don’t sell it. How are you different than that? I do draw the line at the cynical comment of “Why should they care about anyone but themselves?” Because that attitude stinks–that’s why. I don’t expect you to care about my company and whether it thrives, but are you so narrow-minded that you CHHOSE not to care about the future of the industry that feeds your family, pays college bills for your kids, supports your employees? That may be fine in your mind, but not for me. So be it—I CHOOSE to do what I can to buid this industry, not just my own company, to show people the WORTH of what we do and produce, to try to increase the value of what I am PROUD to put into the market. Why would I ever want everyone to be the same, as you say? Why would I want to have 40 acres—that’s okay for some, and I respect them for what they do, but that respect has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with their size–it is for WHO they are and how they conduct themselves in business. Look at Metrolina–superbly run, nice quality, high integrity, and the family makes an effort to pass on their accumulated knowledge to others–openly giving excellent information to their colleagues in a public forum. WHY? Because they don’t limit their concern only to themselves, but to the greater good. They’re not moaning, nor am I. You’re concerned about today, I’m looking forward, and I’m concerned that we devalue our own products so much that we convince the consumer that the value is low. I’m so glad you’re not a high school teacher–the job demands caring about someone other than yourself.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Well done Lloyd

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

First, Lloyd, I agree with you. Of course they are loss leaders and HD is cheapening (I like that word) the value of OUR products. And your reply to JV is a classic.
I also notice how many are very quick to bash Florida. It IS a different market here and not everyone is selling cheaply.
I also like the post from the retailer who is not afraid of the big box stores and establishes himself as the kind of retail store he wants to be and meets the needs of his perceived market.
Murphy, is that you Tom?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Loyd, THANK YOU!!!! You hit a nerve that has created some intresting exchange. I have been blessed to be able to raise my family in an industry that to many is the #1 hobby in the world! Never in the 29 years that I have been in this business have we had as many new gardeners come into our retail garden centers wanting info. on growing vagetables and wanting to know how to be successful with large beautiful patio planters. I believe the independent’s have an amaizing oppertunity to step up and take leadership in thier local market and be dicernably different in quality, selection i.e introduce the newest, coolest plant meterial that will perform well in your market,and of course have the friendliest knowledgable staff, giving the best service and ultimatly giving the consumer an amaizing “WOW” experience! Loyd,you are correct in that there is danger in lowering the consumers perseption of value. To all independent garden centers,I would encourage you to take this years oppertunity,step up and creat an experience that will drive the consumer to your garden center for true quality and value remembering that God has given us the oppertunity to grow the most BEAUTIFUL PLANTS that brighten up everywhere they are planted. Loyd, THANK YOU for your passion and continue to supply the awsome herb plugs you grow for this industry.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Hmm seems that image is everything while I don’t feel that a occasional market ploy such as 1 item ridiculously low priced will hurt the over all value, the independent operator has got to do a job of defining the value of their product. My father is a dairy farmer in upstate NY where the value of milk is controlled by government standards and every now and then they hand out some penny’s on the dollar bull crap grant to supposedly help the local farmers, the belief has become that the product is subsidized and overpriced without the consumer ever knowing the true cost, so they buy lower quality crap imported from third world country’s without ever knowing the lack of standards and quality that they are getting. Ask a honey producer about importing honey just make sure you are out of swinging range. Everyone has been duped by not educating the consumer of our products and their value, so stop crying, show you have a better product, and run the imported crap sellers out of business, its your life.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Regarding the issue of Home Depot selling 4.5″ annauls @ 3-$1.00 Lowe’s countered with $.33 each for the same product. The promiton was an advertising cost to boost traffic and clearly it did, the stores were jammed over flowing consumers and they were buying a lot more than the promtional item. Iknow I was in 20+ stores that weekend
It’s called advertising and promotion. The vendors suplied the product and the retailers ran the promtion, it’s as simple as that
For those who want to knw the names of the vendors contact me.
[email protected]

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Wonderful exchange except for the emotionally charged anonymous people. I challenge you to slow down and post comments that make your point but don’t make you hide behind an anonymous label. The balanced view of this whole thing will benefit everyone on both sides of the equation.

Here’s reality. Economics are classical. The bell curve is at work. It took many years for flats to be commoditized, and that was driven largely by efficiency, lowered production costs, and lower business costs of very large growers and coops that allowed large growers to focus on growing efficiently and then using their lower costs to gain market share rather than increase margins.

If we remember, the independents trouble began as we reached over the top of the bell with flats. Then in the nick of time along came PW and specialty annuals and a new curve was begun saving many butts.

Even the big growers who were beginning to see their margins starting to go down as flats became supply-demand priced when they reached over the top of the curve saw the opportunity.

Next came branded pots which gave the retailer the confidence to increase the price of 4 to 4 1/2″ plants regardless of whether they were in the branded pot (many raised the price but don’t use branded pots). Now the game is changing for different reasons. Now, due in part to economic conditions at publicly traded chain stores garden product is being used to drive their traffic in hopes of selling the market basket at good total margin, which also by the way includes kitchens and carpet. The boxes have something different at stake than independents do and it is the confidence of Wall Street that they are after. But when elephants fight ants suffer greatly. The elephants (boxes) have stock value at stake and the independents have their entire future at stake (and their growers do along with them).

So what’s next? It is inevitable that 4″ will be commoditized (is being right now). Next is 6″. The process has already begun as Depot has very nice 6″ pansies at $.99 in the Columbus Ohio region right now. No limit was posted in two stores I was in two days ago. These products are nearing the top of the bell curve rapidly and the pace of commoditization will only increase in the future.

We must become masters of differentiation. But the chains are able to do the same, and they will. What fashion retailer would dare offer the same designs and colors two seasons in a row? The pace of change can be much quicker, and will be. The boxes have already tapped into exclusivity, (Sunpatiens), and that will probably continue and become bigger so NEW will never be the sole territory of independents, nor will EXCLUSIVE, which is more likely to be the territory of the boxes.

That’s reality as I see it. The solution for independents is to UBER-differentiate, or die.

The solution for breeders and growers might be to slow down commoditization of broad categories with some market discipline about how they release and control distribution of products. It is not illegal. Ask Vera Bradley, Lexus, and even GM. Unfortunately for GM they controlled, but over-supplied and as a result have hurt their entire industry, but that’s an entirely different industry to fix.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

At this time of year, isn’t it likely that the stores might have been packed anyway with people purchasing for their gardens? It’s prime time for that, and if the real purpose is to get people to get other products, perhaps it makes more sense to offer a spectacular deal on a DRILL and charge full price for the garden products while they are the hot ticket. I truly understand what Jerry is saying, but it is not simply “advertising and promotion” and nothing more, at least to us in the floriculture industry. That is EXACTLY, the entire intent of what I was trying to get across with my simple throwaway paragraph from my original posting.PLEASE go back and re-read that, the RANT was NOT about Home Depot, but vegetables and herbs–the product Peace Tree is known for, and don’t ever lose focus that the main intent of the rant is for Peace Tree to get a message to our local retail stores, not the entire nation. I’m REAL clear, Jerry, what Lowe’s and Depot are trying to get done, and I totally understand that, and actually don’t have an issue with that–it is what they want to do well, and SHOULD do well and NEED to do well for their shareholders ( and HAVE NOT done well for quite some time, for their shareholders). But to pick their most perishable product line, at the most active time of year when our industry makes all of its profit for the year serves ONLY Home Depot and harms the perception of what our product is worth, literally planting the seed in the customers’ minds of the actual value. It works short term for Depot, and a few growers ship some plants, but long term it is a disservice. It just depends upon where your loyalty lies–shareholder equity vs longterm viability of anything past your bottom line TODAY. Frankly, if all they scan is a lousy 33 cents, they would REALLY draw people in if they GAVE THE PLANTS AWAY!!! Give 3 plants away with any purchase over $25—it’s only a dollar in sales, after all, and maybe you’ll get some guy in to buy a Makita—and it costs the company a whole lot less than someone buying 60 annual pots on a special deal, assuming tha they are paying the grower regular price. Not THAT’S a deal, and a great promo that works for EVERYONE.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

No Ricardo, I am Murphy John, I own and manage a small 2 acre( wholesale only ) independent annual greenhouse in Maryland.

http://www.murphyflower.com

I have a great deal of respect for all growers, big and small, as long as they do not create a false value to our industry. By the way, if you think we are having a problem with growers low balling, have a look at what the tree and shrub growers are doing. I know how and why the annuals are priced in all of the many different markets we encompass.
All of which have positive aspects. However, when I see or hear of annuals selling below fair market value I can only see harm to our industry.

My market calls for QUALITY and SERVICE and RESPECT, not necessarily in that order, but with all of those ingredients. We all have our own levels of each, which puts a value on our produces. Here is my standard pricing, you can do the math and determine how my customers perceive the valve of my products. $ .97 per 4 1/2″ ( 4 1/4″ )Basic Annual.

I believe the Big growers, have a larger audience making for a larger impact on our industry. Don’t get me wrong in thinking all our problems rest on the shoulders of the Big growers, because I have some concerns with troubling small growers as well, but it is the larger audiences that turns the wheels. When the wheels begin to squeak, we need to apply some grease. Small growers like myself are good at squeaking. Just think for a moment as to who trails most of the new products before they end up in the box stores. Big and Small, we need each other. Listen to what Lloyd has to say, you don’t have to like it but it will help us all.

Lets not turn this industry into another AIG, so to say, with a false sense of value. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I have emailed All-Costa Farms to see if they may have some input on this matter.

Also attempted to contact Pure Beauty Growers without any success.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Hey, I just went over and read Vinny Naab’s article and here’s what he said (apparently from his days at The Home Depot:

I’ll always recall a quote from one of my company’s leaders when discussing a major competitor several years back, and that was, “Peaceful coexistence is not an option.”

That’s reality and the way they look at things in the eyes of a discount retailer. It’s all about their market share and stock value.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd,

Better hang on to your seat, spring starts in Florida and moves North as temps do. One of my customers in Maryland just called, he opened the paper to find an ad for Home Depot’s 33 cent annuals. There was a discussion on price gouging. PA will be next. It may be time to call Gary.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Ravin Travin
Given we know no one wants to fail, If company A, anywhere in the US, not just south florida, should choose to follow a lower price point, medium quality strategy for the success of their business, be it gaining market share, moving volume, or whatever, its their choice. They have the success of their business in mind. There is no reason why they should have to care about grower B, who says, i’m small but I will provide quality to only a select few. Grower A is COMPETING against him, not caring for him.

Look at the two strategies
grower A- Low price point
Grower B- High quality

Say grower B succeeds, and puts A out of business on quality alone.

Would quality then be ruining the industry?

If Grower A puts B out of business, are low prices killing the industry?

Many short-sighted posters above would say: “Good for “B”. Excellent. way to go.”

However, when A puts out B, he is dirt, or, “Does any one know who these guys are?” or shame on them, or its a disgrace, or “let have try to speak with them??????”

The constant competion between the two is the backbone of any industry. High volume low price sales keeps us alive, because there is a danger of pricing ourselves out of the market. High volume-low prices FORCES quality into the market. Its what keeps everyone alive. The low pricing in south florida theoretically is going to drive your overall quality and service up in the independents. (Ben Miller seems to take that stance, so does sid r.)

A constant battle between the two is what sets standards, not a growers perception of his product. When the standards are then set, the price is paid by the consumer.

Thats why Ford can’t get $80,000 for a pickup. Believe me, I’m sure THEY value it at that price, but, markets have set the price around 40-50,000$.

Free market is keeping the industry healthy. Some will fall by the wayside, those who have not planned for competion or have a weak strategy, but its the survival of the fittest. The person selling 33cent pots to home depot may be the first to go, but who are we to tell him what to do?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

jv

Hmmmm, sounds like Jake Van Wingerden.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

JV: I’m not sure why anyone is trying to put anyone else out of business. I am 100% totally for a free market, just not stupid pricing. Please do NOT put words in my mouth—I’m too busy doing that myself. After all, according to some, the only reason I do this discourse is to hear myself speak. However, once again, you have missed the point–it is NOT the GROWERS’ perception of the product that matters at all, it is the CONSUMER. I believe the consumer values our product far higher than you do, and would pay more for it than you value it. Many growers and retailers reflexively devalue thier own product—all I’m doing is asking why this happens. Unfortunately, you seem to believe that you have absolutely no control over any of this. I feel differently.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Wow – I guess I’ve been asleep as I had missed this discussion. Reading through the string I saw that our company was referenced in a couple of notes so I thought I’d respond – maybe at the risk of being shot.

First, I have to say that I know many of the growers that grow for THD and I can tell you that nobody I know sets out to grow a plant not worthy. In our own business, we have historically kept plants on the benches or hanging in the greenhouses for a sufficient time to wow the end customer – as often as possible. There is no doubt we screw up sometimes, but never intentional and the end result is usually the dumpster.

The Home Depot developed a strategy to get people into the stores earlier in the season than they would usually come in. The retail pricing was not shared in advance with the grower community – and I found it interesting that the specific pricing was not available at the stores until a day before the advertising dropped. We were asked to increase our numbers substantially for the date, and assured that there would be sufficient customers to buy what we delivered. We were pushed very hard to keep all stores we served in stock so that customers would not be disappointed during the promotion. At the same time, there was a fantastic buy on mulch. My father in law told me about the great mulch deal they had going at the same time as much of his neighborhood seemed to take advantage. Interestingly, when he was at the Annapolis store to get his 20 bags, he bought a grill – no kidding! In addition, I say some of our $30 hanging baskets around his neighborhood that I probably wouldn’t have seen without that crazy mulch deal.

There are so many people that are so passionate and so smart in our industry – that I really enjoy being part of it and trying to understand all points of view. Lloyd is clearly one of them, as is Jerry Montgomery that I also noticed was quoted in the string.

Personally, I wouldn’t have initiated a 3 for $1 strategy for this opening price point color (labeled .96 pint). However, we deal with folks at THD that understand retail from many angles. I will tell you that many consumers took advantage of the promotion – and surprisingly, even with the horrible weather we’ve had, sales in garden continue at a brisk pace – at normal value pricing. THD is focused on value for the customer, and under the new leadership customer service has and will continue to dramatically improve.

I’m glad that we are part of the grower team, and I promise my partner and I watch our pennies very carefully as we intend to be here a long time. I can’t and wouldn’t share details, but the excitement that this craziness created was not done at the end of a big stick. Like most business owners that might read this – we have a respectful partnership with our customer, and it’s in each of our best interest to be financially sound.

I guess the one thing I read that bugged me was Dave finding Easter Lily’s too tight on a cart at the Gaithersburg store he visited. We try very hard to avoid that type of stupidity. I wish everyone on this string a very prosperous spring as we all need our industry to remain healthy. Respectfully, Gary Mangum

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Well said, Gary, and a thorough analysis as always. Thank you so much for taking the emotion out of it. Truly, Bell raises the bar VERY high in my area, and you have helped drive quality higher and some prices as well. I tell my GC customers constantly, whenever they slough off the impact THD will have on their market die to “quality” that they are not paying attention—this is definitely NOT the same Depot we used to mock so easily. THANK YOU, Gary, for making us all better.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

But the “CONSUMER” sets a new value in thier head for the product.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I hope you all put as much effort into growing/selling/managing your business as you do worrying about others you who can’t control.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Murphy – If that’s the case we will be throwing millions of .96 pt annuals away this spring as they will be retailing at 4X the four day crazy price. I think you noted previously what they sell for normally in our area – and I have no doubt that they are still a great value at the regular great price.

The reason we as a grower moved more towards four and six inch material is because that size root mass is more forgiving than the more standard 606.

What we (collectively) have to do is grow a structurally great plant with the right root/shoot ratio to help folks be successful. I’ve watched tens of thousands of THD, Lowe’s and independent garden center customers make buying choices as they fill carts. I can honestly say that I haven’t seen more than a hundred situations in fifteen+ years where somebody picked a cheap crappy looking plant over one that was “built right” and full of color for more money. I’m very serious about this.

Lost in some of this discussion is the concept of introducing more people to gardening which the big boxes have no doubt done over many years. I really believe this works to the benefit of the industry as a whole, and I’m not alone in this regard. Gary

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I wish we could (collectively) work as an industry to increase price points of our end product, at every level. It is apparent, to me, that the ‘box stores’ continue to view plants, bagged soils and mulches as the spring ‘loss leaders’ of choice.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It was traveling in the NC, SC and TN during the THD 3 for 1 sale. They were enjoying some of the best weather for the such an early period in years. The water restrictions were some what lifted off and consumers were streaming to the stores to take sanctuary in gardening to get away from the madness in Washington. I think it was a great strategy by Home Depot to bring in the enthusiasm in gardening to consumer and get them in to gardening. I witnessed so many people new to gardening asking questions about the difference between annuals and periennials. The sale also helped to keep the consumers comming back to the stores even the subsequent weekends. I witnessed this at Bell stores in Fredrick, MD.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Gary, I agree with all of what you note. And I have the same respect for your past contribution to this industry that Lloyd outlined earlier.

Believe me when I say that I know the gut wrenching feeling of making that decision of throwing away my product or dumping them on the market. I have made many mistakes and will make many more as the years pass. Trust me my friend, you have and will as well.

I would like to remind you of a few years past when the Spring was late, the air was cold, and wet. The rain fell on countless weekends. Many growers had their greenhouses stuffed with plants on the benches, ground, sidewalks, carts, and in other places where they did not belong. Many growers discounted early Spring plants to move them. The result that I experienced first hand was my customers calling later during the peak summer annual season asking when I was going to discount my plants.

Lesson learned.

I truly believe that you can ( and probably have already )convey these concerns to corporate HD without jeopardizing your relationship.

Thanks for listening and responding to Lloyds column.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I am a manager who works at a HD supplier of annuals and bedding. We do not have any say in what they charge,we can make suggestions and thats all. We are paid 90% of regular price for the 4″ color they used for their 3/$100 which in our area is only on Thursdays.The rest of the week it is regular price.The selection is limited and then the rest of the week as I said before it is all regular price. With sales at HD down 30% as a company they are trying some new tactics. To sell grills,lumber and such you need foot traffic.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Get over it Home Depot has the money to spend if the independent had the money to spend they would do it too. Yes it is to get the customer in the door and their product is a great buy and where else will you get a one year warrant on your plants. Do you give it I think not. So move on find the reason your customer are not coming back the lack of customer service that is the number one reason customer will not come back no matter what the price, so kill them with great customer service.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

lloyd, i couldnt agree with you more, to me they are showing us just what they will do to get traffic to their
stores. as ive always beleived the boxes have one goal,
that being, to leave us independents in their dust. its pretty obvious what they have done to the poinsettia
market. youre right its all about customer perception,
we work very hard to produce top quality product and feel we deserve what we ask for it! didnt flooding the market
with cheap product cause some or most of the problems
we all face at this time. i think some of the boxes should
maybe change their garden center signs to read,
(THE PLANT PIMPS)

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Larry P

I think I may go down to the HD and buy some of those Marigolds with the one year warrant. Think about it.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Yes, quite the promotion. The growers that are buying into that kind of insanity and growing for Home Depot should be ostracized from the horticulture industry. They are doing a disservice to the entire industry.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Wondering if the Missus ever takes advantage of ‘buy one, get one free’ at the local supermarket?
Don’t include me in the ALL!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Before everyone panics – The South Florida market is an anomaly to a large degree in regards to plant pricing in every category, shape, form, and variety. Home Depot nor anyone else will likely approach that ridiculous price point elsewhere. A client in another market reported to me that Home Depot pricing of $4.99 for a 4″ PW.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Do you know how that promotion was set up? Why? The amount of foot traffic that was generated early in the year? No you don’t. Don’t broad stroke everyone and everything because it doesn’t fit what you think should be.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

These so called growers selling cheap will soon be no more than a memory. Selling at that price is a sure path to bankruptcy. The problem is that us descent growers will have to make up for our suppliers losses which also sell to these so called growers.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Free Market. Strong win, weak lose. Not anyone elses problem if you can’t take competion. You Ravin Travin, are the kind of people who will get the government involved with setting price floors and ceilings and really ruin the industry.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Without knowing the specifics of the Home Depot “Three for a Dollar” promotion, it is hard to make an educated comment. Was HD taking a loss on each sale, hence the “limit 30”. Loosing 40 cents on each pot, or $12.00 per customer can be made back pretty quick on a few bags of mulch, top soil, a new rake and trowel. Imagine if just one in 500 of those customers bought a new $500.00 grill. Sometimes the store is just trying to get foot traffic at any price. They did something similar with 6″ poinsettias last Christmas. I heard they were selling the poinsettias for less than they were paying the grower. The grower moves product and HD get people in the door. Seems like a win-win situation to me. Now if the three for a dollar price was a regular, every day price all season, then I think we’d need to be concerned.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It is time for the independants to retail at the wholesale price. Competition goes to the producers who sell their product directly to retail customers.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It is time the growers in this industry wake up. Selling 4″ Annuals for 3/1.00 doesn’t help anyone. For too long we have had several large Fla growers who think they can dominate the market by selling below cost. These growers think they can increase market share by selling below cost.What they have ended up doing is putting more and more inferior product on the market. Take a visit to your local HD Walmart or Lowes and look hard and objectively at the product being offered. It has been grown too fast, too close together and should have never been shipped. We as an industry need to clean up our act, learn how to grow, and know what it costs to grow a product.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Sorry to burst the bubble of ‘Anonymous’–they sure have been busy with comments–but I am NOT so naive to believe that this is a regular price, nor that the growers are taking the usual margin on the product. Of course we all know why they run a promo like this–to generate traffic in the store to sell OTHER products. But that misses the REAL issue here. It’s the CONSUMER who figures it out, too, and quickly sets a new value in their head for the product. So, now, OUR customers believe or perceive that an annual is worth 33 cents, not our ‘normal’ price. Also, I believe this deal was NOT solely in Florida—we had several reports in Philly on KYW News Radio on the garden show of the deal locally. To be clear, I did NOT hear the ad personally, but our manager did as did our driver while on the road. Bottom line, this is an incredibly and artificially lowered price, and please tell me how this works long-term for anyone in the GARDEN or plant industry. I’m pretty clear how it works for Depot.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Wow, that’s surely a giant leap to get my commentary turned into calling for government intervention and price-fixing. What kind of people am I exactly? We’ve been competing for quite a while now, never asked for a handout, nor asked for intervention. It’s pretty clear that the growers still get paid for the sale product, but it is really NOT a win-win for everyone over the long haul. Again, we are setting a value in the retail customer’s HEAD for the product–they will EXPECT it to ALWAYS be 33 cents and will resent, over time, the regular price structures. Once again, as an industry, we seen relentlessly intent upon LOWERING the value of our product in the consumer’s mind—and that is because WE fail to value our own product enough.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It is amazing to me that much of this industry thinks that the #1 issue with the customer is price. It is not. Go to your local HD or Lowes and watch. People pick up what they find attractive and quite often aren’t even sure of the price. All our costs continue to increase yet we continue to fool ourselves in thinking we are more productive and can continue to lower our prices. How many growers in the South are still waiting to be paid for product they sold last year? The answer is TOO Many! Take pride in what you grow and get a fair price for it or you may join the ranks of those who are no longer in business.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I agree with having competition and mostly agree with Lloyd Traven that the consumer will expect the 33 cents. One uissue that has not been addressed is that the growers that sell this product are also losing as they only are paid for what goes over the register the chain stores do not lose but the grower does. Until some of the growers or should I say brokers tell the chain stores that we will no provide the product at this price there will be even more growers going out of business. The grower will not have sufficient earnings for repayment of debt and thus their lender will not loan them funds for operating. Maybe this will also weed out the poor managers/growers that agree to this type of pricing.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

i would suspect that the suppliers of the pint annuals are not the ones that set the price. i doubt any grower wishes for government to establish retails for our product. if growers are losing money, they will fail, supply will be less and prices go up. if the growers who price their product more competively prosper, then the other growers need to reduce their costs, or convince their customers that there is value to their product, or they will fail. if promotions like this mean more people garden, then we all should win.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd,

Thank you for bringing up this subject. Maybe, probably not, these growers who flood our market with ridiculous prices will THINK, a least for a moment, as to what they are doing to this great business most of us enjoy.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It has been pretty apparent for the last few years that Lloyd likes to hear himself talk. He should stop doing the trade show curcuit and concentrate on growing his business. As a small grower maybe he is out of the loop of the larger growers that make these deals with Home Depot. Get all the facts before you spew out your nonsense! Our industry is not the only one that Home Depot makes these deals at a loss to gain foot traffic. The regular consumer is VERY aware that these deals are lost leaders! Wake up!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

If Home Depot is offering these kinds of sales specials now what kind of special discounts will they be offering for Mother’s Day or Memorial Day will they be given it away for free. This is the growers and retailers prime season to sell
their product it doesn’t need to be started off at a discount price by Home Depot.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Ha!!! I laughed out loud! For those of you who don’t know Lloyd, he’s about as likely to ask for government intervention as he is to sell his own GORGEOUS, premium product below cost. Err, NOT likely. The point is to get people thinking, which he obviously did. Looks like you hit a nerve Lloyd 🙂

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Steve Thomas is most assuredly correct that the GROWERs are not setting these prices, and it is also likely that they are being paid more than the retail price for their products–it is a loss leader for Depot, designed to get people in the stores. It seems to work, and that’s fine. Steve also hit the proverbial nail on the head—we need to convince the customer of the VALUE of the product in order to get a fair return. Unfortunately, we have now established, in some markets, 33 cents as the value. Ken also nails it—this is PRIME TIME, and the last thing that makes sense for our industry is to push out an artificially low discount (that’s OUR industry, it makes great sense for the Depot). Re: ANONYMOUS from April 9— WHY on earth should I stop doing the trade show circuit? I get constant requests to speak and I imagine that there is a reason for that beyond angering you–personally, I believe that it is an OBLIGATION to do this, that is is part of a mission to GIVE BACK to this industry, to contribute to the next generation of growers as well as this one. I’d LOVE to know WHO you are, so we could set up a session where we could each present and discuss our clearly different views. THAT would be a wonderful contribution to the discourse and knowledge base for everyone to advance their companies to fit their market. WHY should I concentrate on GROWING my business? To get big enough to knock heads in the low margin market with you instead of dealing with destination garden centers who appreciate unusual and exceptional product? No thanks. There are many LARGE growers who I consider to be good friends and equal colleagues, and they consider me the same way. We work in different circles with different customers, but that makes no difference. After all, as Anonymous said farther up this string (of course, it could ba a different anonymous), if PRICE is so far down on the list of consumer concerns, how do we justify anyone giving it away as a loss leader? If price doesn’t matter, why price it at 33 cents? Remember all the talk at Xmas about “Will anyone ever pay full retail again?” after the amazing discounting everywhere? I don’t know about you, but we’re trying constantly to reduce costs and become more efficient. We’ve invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to do just that. Of course, there is inevitably a point where all the extra has been cut out, and where do we go from there when inputs continue to rise and labor expects to make more? LOWERING prices doesn’t solve it. Increasing the perception of value does, as long as you get compensated. Paul, that nerve is throbbing right now!!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

If any grower out there is in any way afraid of home depot then you deserve to go out of business. I am a one man show with 9.000 sq ft of growing space 2 miles from a home depot. I grow everything I sell, I open first weekend in April and I am completely sold out by June 1st. The horrible plants at home depot are my best advertising, every customer of mine sees the difference, and is more than happy to pay the difference. Yesterday, a home depot employee was here spending nearly $100, she is a regular customer who will be back many times this year. I ran and ad a few years ago that read “What do live plants have in common with lumber and power tools? NOTHING! So don’t buy them at a hardware store.” Good (not necessarily FANCY) restaurants do not have “dollar menus”, and any single good restaurant will net more than any single McDonalds.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I always appreciate these “rants”. They amuse and inform, as all good teachings should. I saw Lloyd Traven a number of years ago speaking at a Euro American open house. I was by far the youngest grower at the talk. I took meticulos notes at every session at the open house, and now years later only two principles remain in my mind, both of which have influenced my success, and both of which Lloyd pounded in at his talk. Crunch all your numbers inside out, upside down and backwards, know what you are spending in time and money, space in the greenhouse, etc…, and never compromise your quality. Obviously home depot is doing neither. Have you seen their performance on the stock market lately? Crunch those numbers.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Would somebody know who the grower/growers is/are selling to HD in Florida? ( at 3 for a dollar )

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Excuse me, I meant the grower/growers selling to HD in Florida which in turn is selling to the public.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Passion. A Passion for the Plants from the People. That’s what makes this industry great. I read all these rants and I too heard the commercial. I started out working with growers before evolving into the independent garden center arena – so I respest and appreciate both elements.

Passion is rarely missing from the independents. They are however independents first – they don’t belong in a box because they think outside the box. These rants are the further evidence whether it was needed or not. Lloyd Traven spoke to our Garden Center Tour attendees on our Holiday Tour- he was engaging, insightful, knowledgeable and entertaining. Good qualities for a speaker in my humble opinion. The key for all of us is knowing who we are – as an industry, in our own company (be that garden center or grower). We live in a great country where we still get to make those choices. Extra kudos Lloyd for giving back to your industry! Kudos to all who shared their passion whether its agreed to or not…… NOW go sell some plants! 🙂

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Ah, if only “passion” paid the bills! I am all for taking the High Road in this business, but if all our customers (and potential customers) are at Depot buying annuals for 33 cents, who’s going to buy the 4″ Proven Winners for $4.99? If you’ve filled up your flower beds with 33 cent annuals, why would you buy any more– and where would you put them if you did?

Educating the Big Box customer as to why our plants have more “value”– good luck with that!

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I stopped by the Home Depot in Gaithersburg Maryland today to take a look at the “four inch” annuals that had been on sale for three for $1.00 last weekend. They are now the regular price of $1.29 each. I might add that Home Depot’s radio ad and the sign in the store says “four inch” annual, even though they are in a much smaller pot that is at most 3-1/4″ across the top. The pot sticker is correctly labeled by Bell Nursery as a “pint”. Home Depot is exaggerating about the size, both on the radio and in the store. (Bell Nursery, are you listening?) The “pint” annuals did look pretty good.
I was however mortified at how the Easter Lilies where crammed on the carts, all smashed and mangled by putting too many plants on each shelf and having the shelves too close together. The lilies looked like they were OK before they were ruined by the person who loaded the carts. What a shame.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Dave in Maryland

I all honesty Bell Nurseries ( supplier of the HD’s in the Maryland, Delaware and beyond ) has in the past helped to increase the worth of our products. Before the Bell in the HD’s the price of flowers at these stores where a bit father off. Bell has a good bit of work to do but, they have been working at it.
The price of $ 1.29 for a 3 1/4″ pot of lets say Marigolds in a Chain Store really is not to far off. However Bell needs to be honest as to the real size of the pots ( it would be difficult to do in PA ) Using the same math for pot size Bell uses I could call my 4 1/2″ pots a 6″ pot.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Gary Mangum, and the exceptional folks at Bell Nursery, have truly raised the bar very high for everyone. Gary, his partner, and his staff are formidable competitors and suppliers—the true example that ALL of us should be looking toward emulating. Bell has DEFINITELY driven the price structure upward in my area, as well as the quality standards for box stores. Of course, that is the only reason they are able to drive pricing up. The same, in my experience, is NOT true nationwide, but is true in some areas. For example, Rick Brown does a great job in Florida. There are definitely other great examples, but there re too many examples of terrible quality and display technique. But this misses the point entirely—it is NOT about me, other growers whether small boutique growers or massive mega-growers, nor really about the retailers, but about the CONSUMER, the Mrs. Smith who actually buys product, the one who really drives it all through the supply chain. SHE is the one we need to nurture, the one who we must PROVE the value to. Right now, we are teaching her and reinforcing to her that the TRUE value is 33 cents—anything above that is usury, excess price and will eventually be seen as GOUGING. We are doing this to ourselves–anyone who thinks the box is concerned about the welfare of our industry beyond their direct suppliers is not thinking this through to conclusion. I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd

When a heater in the greenhouse is down, or an employee is having a problem, we look at what we can do to make it (him/her ) work within the goals we expect. I think we all can agree that the Chain Store’s plant prices are expected to be lower than a Independent Garden Center for all of the obvious reasons. When a Chain Store (Home Depot) sells 4″ annuals for 33 cents, WE, ALL GROWERS, have a problem.
If we can talk to this grower which allowed this to happen and inform this grower of our concerns than and only than can we begin to fix this problem. Please tell me that someone has addressed this problem to this grower and what the outcome of the conversation was.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

ravin travin,

think outside the industry. Whats sets prices on automobiles, the manufacturer or the market? houses, the seller, or the market? You have no concept of simple supply and demand economics. you dont set your price. if you did, at say, 6.50$, wholesale for a 6 inch pot, would you still be smokin at peace tree farms? Id love to sell our baskets at $25 wholesale. too bad i cant set MY price.

the risk some growers take by going for volume sales is not done to screw you or me. Its a risk taken by them as they see fit in their strategy for long term business. why should they care about anyone but themselves? the more power to them if they can make it, because that means they are a success. why would they want to lose money. Its the bigger picture. a strategy different than yours. why shoudl we all be the same? it is what make america tick my freind. thats why they have 40 acres and others have 4. Capitalize on your strengths, and they can capitalize on theirs. Find their weakness and exploit it rather than be a moaner. I feel like a highschool teacher instructing an economics/business 101 class.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It is a disgrace that some big growers compare the green industry with gas grills and automobiles.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

JV: You could not be more wrong. I’m NOT talking at all, through the entire discourse, about growers big or small, nor even retailers, but CONSUMERS and how they are taught to view our products. Do you seriously think they were DEMANDING 33 cent annuals? NO, we chose to provide it to them. You can’t set your prices? How sad. It must make you feel terrible, having absolutely no control over your business. Of course I set my price, the store gets to choose whether or not to buy. Many don’t, automatically deciding that their customers won’t pay the price–once again, the retailer usually makes the decision for the customer what our product is worth instead of letting the customer decide what they are willing to pay. I’d love to sell baskets at $25, but don’t–of course, I know the cost and don’t need to either. They’re WORTH it, but that’s another issue. However, FYI, we price MANY 6″ items at well over $6.50 wholesale–I’m curious about the “smokin” comment, though. WHY are you making your comments so personal? Nobody is screwing me–I’m not saying that, never have. But make no mistake, I follow the same rules you have to live by , too. I invest in my company, I expanded my capacity, I seek new customers, too. If my product falls short, or is not seen as a fair value, I don’t sell it. How are you different than that? I do draw the line at the cynical comment of “Why should they care about anyone but themselves?” Because that attitude stinks–that’s why. I don’t expect you to care about my company and whether it thrives, but are you so narrow-minded that you CHHOSE not to care about the future of the industry that feeds your family, pays college bills for your kids, supports your employees? That may be fine in your mind, but not for me. So be it—I CHOOSE to do what I can to buid this industry, not just my own company, to show people the WORTH of what we do and produce, to try to increase the value of what I am PROUD to put into the market. Why would I ever want everyone to be the same, as you say? Why would I want to have 40 acres—that’s okay for some, and I respect them for what they do, but that respect has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with their size–it is for WHO they are and how they conduct themselves in business. Look at Metrolina–superbly run, nice quality, high integrity, and the family makes an effort to pass on their accumulated knowledge to others–openly giving excellent information to their colleagues in a public forum. WHY? Because they don’t limit their concern only to themselves, but to the greater good. They’re not moaning, nor am I. You’re concerned about today, I’m looking forward, and I’m concerned that we devalue our own products so much that we convince the consumer that the value is low. I’m so glad you’re not a high school teacher–the job demands caring about someone other than yourself.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Well done Lloyd

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

First, Lloyd, I agree with you. Of course they are loss leaders and HD is cheapening (I like that word) the value of OUR products. And your reply to JV is a classic.
I also notice how many are very quick to bash Florida. It IS a different market here and not everyone is selling cheaply.
I also like the post from the retailer who is not afraid of the big box stores and establishes himself as the kind of retail store he wants to be and meets the needs of his perceived market.
Murphy, is that you Tom?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Loyd, THANK YOU!!!! You hit a nerve that has created some intresting exchange. I have been blessed to be able to raise my family in an industry that to many is the #1 hobby in the world! Never in the 29 years that I have been in this business have we had as many new gardeners come into our retail garden centers wanting info. on growing vagetables and wanting to know how to be successful with large beautiful patio planters. I believe the independent’s have an amaizing oppertunity to step up and take leadership in thier local market and be dicernably different in quality, selection i.e introduce the newest, coolest plant meterial that will perform well in your market,and of course have the friendliest knowledgable staff, giving the best service and ultimatly giving the consumer an amaizing “WOW” experience! Loyd,you are correct in that there is danger in lowering the consumers perseption of value. To all independent garden centers,I would encourage you to take this years oppertunity,step up and creat an experience that will drive the consumer to your garden center for true quality and value remembering that God has given us the oppertunity to grow the most BEAUTIFUL PLANTS that brighten up everywhere they are planted. Loyd, THANK YOU for your passion and continue to supply the awsome herb plugs you grow for this industry.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Hmm seems that image is everything while I don’t feel that a occasional market ploy such as 1 item ridiculously low priced will hurt the over all value, the independent operator has got to do a job of defining the value of their product. My father is a dairy farmer in upstate NY where the value of milk is controlled by government standards and every now and then they hand out some penny’s on the dollar bull crap grant to supposedly help the local farmers, the belief has become that the product is subsidized and overpriced without the consumer ever knowing the true cost, so they buy lower quality crap imported from third world country’s without ever knowing the lack of standards and quality that they are getting. Ask a honey producer about importing honey just make sure you are out of swinging range. Everyone has been duped by not educating the consumer of our products and their value, so stop crying, show you have a better product, and run the imported crap sellers out of business, its your life.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Regarding the issue of Home Depot selling 4.5″ annauls @ 3-$1.00 Lowe’s countered with $.33 each for the same product. The promiton was an advertising cost to boost traffic and clearly it did, the stores were jammed over flowing consumers and they were buying a lot more than the promtional item. Iknow I was in 20+ stores that weekend
It’s called advertising and promotion. The vendors suplied the product and the retailers ran the promtion, it’s as simple as that
For those who want to knw the names of the vendors contact me.
[email protected]

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Wonderful exchange except for the emotionally charged anonymous people. I challenge you to slow down and post comments that make your point but don’t make you hide behind an anonymous label. The balanced view of this whole thing will benefit everyone on both sides of the equation.

Here’s reality. Economics are classical. The bell curve is at work. It took many years for flats to be commoditized, and that was driven largely by efficiency, lowered production costs, and lower business costs of very large growers and coops that allowed large growers to focus on growing efficiently and then using their lower costs to gain market share rather than increase margins.

If we remember, the independents trouble began as we reached over the top of the bell with flats. Then in the nick of time along came PW and specialty annuals and a new curve was begun saving many butts.

Even the big growers who were beginning to see their margins starting to go down as flats became supply-demand priced when they reached over the top of the curve saw the opportunity.

Next came branded pots which gave the retailer the confidence to increase the price of 4 to 4 1/2″ plants regardless of whether they were in the branded pot (many raised the price but don’t use branded pots). Now the game is changing for different reasons. Now, due in part to economic conditions at publicly traded chain stores garden product is being used to drive their traffic in hopes of selling the market basket at good total margin, which also by the way includes kitchens and carpet. The boxes have something different at stake than independents do and it is the confidence of Wall Street that they are after. But when elephants fight ants suffer greatly. The elephants (boxes) have stock value at stake and the independents have their entire future at stake (and their growers do along with them).

So what’s next? It is inevitable that 4″ will be commoditized (is being right now). Next is 6″. The process has already begun as Depot has very nice 6″ pansies at $.99 in the Columbus Ohio region right now. No limit was posted in two stores I was in two days ago. These products are nearing the top of the bell curve rapidly and the pace of commoditization will only increase in the future.

We must become masters of differentiation. But the chains are able to do the same, and they will. What fashion retailer would dare offer the same designs and colors two seasons in a row? The pace of change can be much quicker, and will be. The boxes have already tapped into exclusivity, (Sunpatiens), and that will probably continue and become bigger so NEW will never be the sole territory of independents, nor will EXCLUSIVE, which is more likely to be the territory of the boxes.

That’s reality as I see it. The solution for independents is to UBER-differentiate, or die.

The solution for breeders and growers might be to slow down commoditization of broad categories with some market discipline about how they release and control distribution of products. It is not illegal. Ask Vera Bradley, Lexus, and even GM. Unfortunately for GM they controlled, but over-supplied and as a result have hurt their entire industry, but that’s an entirely different industry to fix.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

At this time of year, isn’t it likely that the stores might have been packed anyway with people purchasing for their gardens? It’s prime time for that, and if the real purpose is to get people to get other products, perhaps it makes more sense to offer a spectacular deal on a DRILL and charge full price for the garden products while they are the hot ticket. I truly understand what Jerry is saying, but it is not simply “advertising and promotion” and nothing more, at least to us in the floriculture industry. That is EXACTLY, the entire intent of what I was trying to get across with my simple throwaway paragraph from my original posting.PLEASE go back and re-read that, the RANT was NOT about Home Depot, but vegetables and herbs–the product Peace Tree is known for, and don’t ever lose focus that the main intent of the rant is for Peace Tree to get a message to our local retail stores, not the entire nation. I’m REAL clear, Jerry, what Lowe’s and Depot are trying to get done, and I totally understand that, and actually don’t have an issue with that–it is what they want to do well, and SHOULD do well and NEED to do well for their shareholders ( and HAVE NOT done well for quite some time, for their shareholders). But to pick their most perishable product line, at the most active time of year when our industry makes all of its profit for the year serves ONLY Home Depot and harms the perception of what our product is worth, literally planting the seed in the customers’ minds of the actual value. It works short term for Depot, and a few growers ship some plants, but long term it is a disservice. It just depends upon where your loyalty lies–shareholder equity vs longterm viability of anything past your bottom line TODAY. Frankly, if all they scan is a lousy 33 cents, they would REALLY draw people in if they GAVE THE PLANTS AWAY!!! Give 3 plants away with any purchase over $25—it’s only a dollar in sales, after all, and maybe you’ll get some guy in to buy a Makita—and it costs the company a whole lot less than someone buying 60 annual pots on a special deal, assuming tha they are paying the grower regular price. Not THAT’S a deal, and a great promo that works for EVERYONE.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

No Ricardo, I am Murphy John, I own and manage a small 2 acre( wholesale only ) independent annual greenhouse in Maryland.

http://www.murphyflower.com

I have a great deal of respect for all growers, big and small, as long as they do not create a false value to our industry. By the way, if you think we are having a problem with growers low balling, have a look at what the tree and shrub growers are doing. I know how and why the annuals are priced in all of the many different markets we encompass.
All of which have positive aspects. However, when I see or hear of annuals selling below fair market value I can only see harm to our industry.

My market calls for QUALITY and SERVICE and RESPECT, not necessarily in that order, but with all of those ingredients. We all have our own levels of each, which puts a value on our produces. Here is my standard pricing, you can do the math and determine how my customers perceive the valve of my products. $ .97 per 4 1/2″ ( 4 1/4″ )Basic Annual.

I believe the Big growers, have a larger audience making for a larger impact on our industry. Don’t get me wrong in thinking all our problems rest on the shoulders of the Big growers, because I have some concerns with troubling small growers as well, but it is the larger audiences that turns the wheels. When the wheels begin to squeak, we need to apply some grease. Small growers like myself are good at squeaking. Just think for a moment as to who trails most of the new products before they end up in the box stores. Big and Small, we need each other. Listen to what Lloyd has to say, you don’t have to like it but it will help us all.

Lets not turn this industry into another AIG, so to say, with a false sense of value. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I have emailed All-Costa Farms to see if they may have some input on this matter.

Also attempted to contact Pure Beauty Growers without any success.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Hey, I just went over and read Vinny Naab’s article and here’s what he said (apparently from his days at The Home Depot:

I’ll always recall a quote from one of my company’s leaders when discussing a major competitor several years back, and that was, “Peaceful coexistence is not an option.”

That’s reality and the way they look at things in the eyes of a discount retailer. It’s all about their market share and stock value.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Lloyd,

Better hang on to your seat, spring starts in Florida and moves North as temps do. One of my customers in Maryland just called, he opened the paper to find an ad for Home Depot’s 33 cent annuals. There was a discussion on price gouging. PA will be next. It may be time to call Gary.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Ravin Travin
Given we know no one wants to fail, If company A, anywhere in the US, not just south florida, should choose to follow a lower price point, medium quality strategy for the success of their business, be it gaining market share, moving volume, or whatever, its their choice. They have the success of their business in mind. There is no reason why they should have to care about grower B, who says, i’m small but I will provide quality to only a select few. Grower A is COMPETING against him, not caring for him.

Look at the two strategies
grower A- Low price point
Grower B- High quality

Say grower B succeeds, and puts A out of business on quality alone.

Would quality then be ruining the industry?

If Grower A puts B out of business, are low prices killing the industry?

Many short-sighted posters above would say: “Good for “B”. Excellent. way to go.”

However, when A puts out B, he is dirt, or, “Does any one know who these guys are?” or shame on them, or its a disgrace, or “let have try to speak with them??????”

The constant competion between the two is the backbone of any industry. High volume low price sales keeps us alive, because there is a danger of pricing ourselves out of the market. High volume-low prices FORCES quality into the market. Its what keeps everyone alive. The low pricing in south florida theoretically is going to drive your overall quality and service up in the independents. (Ben Miller seems to take that stance, so does sid r.)

A constant battle between the two is what sets standards, not a growers perception of his product. When the standards are then set, the price is paid by the consumer.

Thats why Ford can’t get $80,000 for a pickup. Believe me, I’m sure THEY value it at that price, but, markets have set the price around 40-50,000$.

Free market is keeping the industry healthy. Some will fall by the wayside, those who have not planned for competion or have a weak strategy, but its the survival of the fittest. The person selling 33cent pots to home depot may be the first to go, but who are we to tell him what to do?

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

jv

Hmmmm, sounds like Jake Van Wingerden.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

JV: I’m not sure why anyone is trying to put anyone else out of business. I am 100% totally for a free market, just not stupid pricing. Please do NOT put words in my mouth—I’m too busy doing that myself. After all, according to some, the only reason I do this discourse is to hear myself speak. However, once again, you have missed the point–it is NOT the GROWERS’ perception of the product that matters at all, it is the CONSUMER. I believe the consumer values our product far higher than you do, and would pay more for it than you value it. Many growers and retailers reflexively devalue thier own product—all I’m doing is asking why this happens. Unfortunately, you seem to believe that you have absolutely no control over any of this. I feel differently.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Wow – I guess I’ve been asleep as I had missed this discussion. Reading through the string I saw that our company was referenced in a couple of notes so I thought I’d respond – maybe at the risk of being shot.

First, I have to say that I know many of the growers that grow for THD and I can tell you that nobody I know sets out to grow a plant not worthy. In our own business, we have historically kept plants on the benches or hanging in the greenhouses for a sufficient time to wow the end customer – as often as possible. There is no doubt we screw up sometimes, but never intentional and the end result is usually the dumpster.

The Home Depot developed a strategy to get people into the stores earlier in the season than they would usually come in. The retail pricing was not shared in advance with the grower community – and I found it interesting that the specific pricing was not available at the stores until a day before the advertising dropped. We were asked to increase our numbers substantially for the date, and assured that there would be sufficient customers to buy what we delivered. We were pushed very hard to keep all stores we served in stock so that customers would not be disappointed during the promotion. At the same time, there was a fantastic buy on mulch. My father in law told me about the great mulch deal they had going at the same time as much of his neighborhood seemed to take advantage. Interestingly, when he was at the Annapolis store to get his 20 bags, he bought a grill – no kidding! In addition, I say some of our $30 hanging baskets around his neighborhood that I probably wouldn’t have seen without that crazy mulch deal.

There are so many people that are so passionate and so smart in our industry – that I really enjoy being part of it and trying to understand all points of view. Lloyd is clearly one of them, as is Jerry Montgomery that I also noticed was quoted in the string.

Personally, I wouldn’t have initiated a 3 for $1 strategy for this opening price point color (labeled .96 pint). However, we deal with folks at THD that understand retail from many angles. I will tell you that many consumers took advantage of the promotion – and surprisingly, even with the horrible weather we’ve had, sales in garden continue at a brisk pace – at normal value pricing. THD is focused on value for the customer, and under the new leadership customer service has and will continue to dramatically improve.

I’m glad that we are part of the grower team, and I promise my partner and I watch our pennies very carefully as we intend to be here a long time. I can’t and wouldn’t share details, but the excitement that this craziness created was not done at the end of a big stick. Like most business owners that might read this – we have a respectful partnership with our customer, and it’s in each of our best interest to be financially sound.

I guess the one thing I read that bugged me was Dave finding Easter Lily’s too tight on a cart at the Gaithersburg store he visited. We try very hard to avoid that type of stupidity. I wish everyone on this string a very prosperous spring as we all need our industry to remain healthy. Respectfully, Gary Mangum

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Well said, Gary, and a thorough analysis as always. Thank you so much for taking the emotion out of it. Truly, Bell raises the bar VERY high in my area, and you have helped drive quality higher and some prices as well. I tell my GC customers constantly, whenever they slough off the impact THD will have on their market die to “quality” that they are not paying attention—this is definitely NOT the same Depot we used to mock so easily. THANK YOU, Gary, for making us all better.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

But the “CONSUMER” sets a new value in thier head for the product.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I hope you all put as much effort into growing/selling/managing your business as you do worrying about others you who can’t control.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Murphy – If that’s the case we will be throwing millions of .96 pt annuals away this spring as they will be retailing at 4X the four day crazy price. I think you noted previously what they sell for normally in our area – and I have no doubt that they are still a great value at the regular great price.

The reason we as a grower moved more towards four and six inch material is because that size root mass is more forgiving than the more standard 606.

What we (collectively) have to do is grow a structurally great plant with the right root/shoot ratio to help folks be successful. I’ve watched tens of thousands of THD, Lowe’s and independent garden center customers make buying choices as they fill carts. I can honestly say that I haven’t seen more than a hundred situations in fifteen+ years where somebody picked a cheap crappy looking plant over one that was “built right” and full of color for more money. I’m very serious about this.

Lost in some of this discussion is the concept of introducing more people to gardening which the big boxes have no doubt done over many years. I really believe this works to the benefit of the industry as a whole, and I’m not alone in this regard. Gary

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I wish we could (collectively) work as an industry to increase price points of our end product, at every level. It is apparent, to me, that the ‘box stores’ continue to view plants, bagged soils and mulches as the spring ‘loss leaders’ of choice.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

It was traveling in the NC, SC and TN during the THD 3 for 1 sale. They were enjoying some of the best weather for the such an early period in years. The water restrictions were some what lifted off and consumers were streaming to the stores to take sanctuary in gardening to get away from the madness in Washington. I think it was a great strategy by Home Depot to bring in the enthusiasm in gardening to consumer and get them in to gardening. I witnessed so many people new to gardening asking questions about the difference between annuals and periennials. The sale also helped to keep the consumers comming back to the stores even the subsequent weekends. I witnessed this at Bell stores in Fredrick, MD.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Gary, I agree with all of what you note. And I have the same respect for your past contribution to this industry that Lloyd outlined earlier.

Believe me when I say that I know the gut wrenching feeling of making that decision of throwing away my product or dumping them on the market. I have made many mistakes and will make many more as the years pass. Trust me my friend, you have and will as well.

I would like to remind you of a few years past when the Spring was late, the air was cold, and wet. The rain fell on countless weekends. Many growers had their greenhouses stuffed with plants on the benches, ground, sidewalks, carts, and in other places where they did not belong. Many growers discounted early Spring plants to move them. The result that I experienced first hand was my customers calling later during the peak summer annual season asking when I was going to discount my plants.

Lesson learned.

I truly believe that you can ( and probably have already )convey these concerns to corporate HD without jeopardizing your relationship.

Thanks for listening and responding to Lloyds column.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

I am a manager who works at a HD supplier of annuals and bedding. We do not have any say in what they charge,we can make suggestions and thats all. We are paid 90% of regular price for the 4″ color they used for their 3/$100 which in our area is only on Thursdays.The rest of the week it is regular price.The selection is limited and then the rest of the week as I said before it is all regular price. With sales at HD down 30% as a company they are trying some new tactics. To sell grills,lumber and such you need foot traffic.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Get over it Home Depot has the money to spend if the independent had the money to spend they would do it too. Yes it is to get the customer in the door and their product is a great buy and where else will you get a one year warrant on your plants. Do you give it I think not. So move on find the reason your customer are not coming back the lack of customer service that is the number one reason customer will not come back no matter what the price, so kill them with great customer service.

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

lloyd, i couldnt agree with you more, to me they are showing us just what they will do to get traffic to their
stores. as ive always beleived the boxes have one goal,
that being, to leave us independents in their dust. its pretty obvious what they have done to the poinsettia
market. youre right its all about customer perception,
we work very hard to produce top quality product and feel we deserve what we ask for it! didnt flooding the market
with cheap product cause some or most of the problems
we all face at this time. i think some of the boxes should
maybe change their garden center signs to read,
(THE PLANT PIMPS)

Avatar for Anonymous Anonymous says:

Larry P

I think I may go down to the HD and buy some of those Marigolds with the one year warrant. Think about it.